The People Of Detroit

"At this point, the righteous indignation set...

2012-05-16T19:10:53.328-04:00

"At this point, the righteous indignation set roiling at Heather's first intrusion into our lives, finally overran my commitment to civility and I - in so many words - invited Heather to go have conjugal relations with herself. "

- from the article.

Apparently, you don't know what "conjugal" means. Apparently, high school-level literacy is not tolerated where ever you are from, "Guest".

Nice how you failed to mention in your complaint t...

2012-05-16T18:23:38.727-04:00

Nice how you failed to mention in your complaint that you told Heather to f*** herself. Lost all respect for you there. That's the reason she called the police on you, and you deserved it. That may be acceptable/common in Detroit, but it's not tolerated anywhere else.

"God doesn't hate" Tell that to Sod...

2012-05-16T02:32:24.532-04:00

"God doesn't hate"

Tell that to Sodom and Gomorrah, or Noah's neighbors, or the hundreds of thousands if not millions or people who were killed according to Biblical mythology.

As humans we not only evolve physically, we also e...

2012-05-16T00:51:37.485-04:00

As humans we not only evolve physically, we also evolve morally; and evolution takes time in both. The bible and Koran also condoned 'stoning' as well. We don't take the bible literally. Regardless of whether or not folks believe the bible reflects God's word...it isn't verbatim. Like any book, it is tainted by the writer's environment subject to all the more's of society at the time. What was not acceptable or acceptable thousands of years ago, may very well be acceptable today. We should never 'judge' the past by our current evolved morality. God doesn't hate! Actually, many religious leaders, including some in the Catholic Church, have come out in support of Gay Marriage. Things are changing... But you change peoples minds with information and understanding....not anger and hatred. Anything new to folks is uncomfortable at first. Let them, and help them evolve...

Great post as usual Noah. This blog has truly beco...

2012-05-14T14:23:42.476-04:00

Great post as usual Noah. This blog has truly become an outstanding expression. Any update on the Starbucks lady?

It's Iron Man!

2012-05-10T14:45:45.744-04:00

It's Iron Man!

Actually no, I understand it great. You painted t...

2012-05-03T13:39:53.000-04:00

Actually no, I understand it great. You painted the picture perfectly, allow me to explain...

1) you and your girl pushed two tables together at a Starbucks
2) an employee quickly came and told you two that you are not allowed to that at this establishement (a perfectly valid and common regulation)
3) you pointed out a group of tables pushed together
4) she informed you that they had called 2 weeks in advance and received permission

at which point you say, "My partner and I kind of looked at each other, mouths agape, in shock at Heather's irrational request."

First off, there is absolutely nothing irrational about that request. That is a common rule, it is private business establishment, and they are providing you a service and a product. The patrons do not get to decide how a business is run. That would be the person who pays all the bills and wages of everyone who works there.

5) You and your partner ignored Heather's request
6) Heather then asks you to leave as you have ignored her reasonable request and apparently have not yet ordered drinks

At which point your response is, "Go f yourself." (if I interpreted correctly)

Perhaps Heather was being too uptight, but nothing she had done was against the law, or even against normal business practice. And your response was to, in your own words, "overran my commitment to civility"I'm sorry but you need to realize that you were the one in serious error. You even admited it yourself. By abandoning civility, and lashing out with threatening language, you have become a worse version of the very person you are critiquing. And with your response to me it seems as if you refuse to think deeply about your actions. Instead with a broad stroke you deem your actions as "righteous" b/c they feel right to you, and then condemn anothers for their alleged (with very little proof) intolerance. This hypocacy runs rampant in our generation and needs to be addressed. We find it so easy to see the ill in others, and yet walk completely blind to our own.

So with all that said, I think the idea behind your page is fantastic. The pictures are amazing. And you have the potential to make a very positive impact on your community and city. However, it's going to take you questioning your worldview, and realizing that the intolerance you hate in others, is probably even stronger in yourself.

Danny, You don't seem to understand what ha...

2012-04-30T14:49:42.813-04:00

Danny,

You don't seem to understand what happened that day. I would try to explain the context to you, but I doubt you would understand it any more than you do now.

Very true, Guest :)

2012-04-30T14:26:06.285-04:00

Very true, Guest :)

Good news is, you don't have to leave Midtown ...

2012-04-30T11:21:12.436-04:00

Good news is, you don't have to leave Midtown to go to a Barnes & Noble or Barnes & Noble Cafe! There is one on the corner of Cass and Warren. :)

A) Whatever the underlying demographic reasons, th...

2012-04-26T22:20:50.489-04:00

A) Whatever the underlying demographic reasons, the fact still stands that homophobia is more pronounced among all black Americans that it is among all members of any other major ethnicity. Surely you don't dispute this.

B) Probably so.

C) From Revelations - in the New Testament:

"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water — 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+8&version=NIV

The "God" of the New Testament seems plenty angry to me. In fact, the whole supposed schism between Old Testament God and New Testament God is little more than a handwaving attempt by Bible apologists to excuse an ideology that is thoroughly and inherently unjust and immoral. While I agree that people don't need religion to find an excuse to hurt other people, there perhaps is no more powerful excuse for hurting other people, than to claim you are doing on orders from the creator of the universe. Also, even if it was completely benign, there's still the little issue of it being complete and utter make-believe bullshit. If we TRULY value knowledge, then we have an obligation to divest in any ideology that is based in superstition.

Likewise appreciated. To respond: a) Razib Kahn...

2012-04-26T21:22:58.526-04:00

Likewise appreciated. To respond:

a) Razib Kahn did a study for Discover which showed: In fact, among downscale sectors there isn’t much of a difference between whites and blacks, the difference shows up among the upscale.
There isn’t that much of a difference between fundamentalist blacks
and whites. There is a big difference between blacks and whites who
consider themselves religious liberals; the former are far less
homophobic than black fundamentalists, but note that they’re about as
gay friendly as white religious moderates.

So we're looking at a population that has a higher proportion of of lower income, "downscale" individuals, and hence some of what you talk about. But then we're talking about homophobia being in part, a product of economics. Yes, there are some racial differences, but in addressing this, I think it's too simple to simply assign this to race and religion. I mean this is the same religion that has been open to so many differing interpretations, justifying slavery and at the same time being the argument against it.

b) Very much understood. Though I also think that the financial fallout from race issues plays a large factor in this. Ferndale and other suburban communities have strong LGBT centers, etc, but LGBT organizations in Detroit often don't have the financial and organizational resources. I'd be willing to bet that the Ellis Center gets a very small fraction of the backing that suburban (read=white) organizations get. I could be wrong, hope I am, but I don't think so. Given that organizations like the Ellis Center would be in the forefront of raising awareness and instigating change (at least locally), I think this is important.

c) My comment was partly in jest, but that IS the main difference between the Old and New Testaments. The OT God very much was the god of the Israelites, hence all the talk of God's "chosen" people, etc. in reference to Moses and the people who followed him as opposed to all the many other peoples referenced. That there were other gods that were considered illegitimate is clear and the Israelites were warned to avoid them as well as the people that followed those gods. Hence in Leviticus, there's also a mention of not having wool and cotton mixed, a not so veiled reference to other people with other beliefs. And there's no secret that the OT God and the NT God are different. "An eye for an eye" vs "turn the other cheek". This has been attributed to God lightening up, as well a lot of other political theories linked to Christianity competing with other popular religions. Regardless of the motivation of the writers, can we say that killing people for being gay was wrong then? Sure. We can also say that sending a flood to wipe out humanity is also wrong. The OT God is an angry, often deadly god that appears to use fear and violence to get the point across. That religion becomes the tool for some twisted crap, it also ends up also serving to inspire as well. Do I "believe"? Not enough to avoid being called a heathen more than once, but but enough to recognize that with or without religion, people will find ways to discriminate and hate no matter what. So while yes, it's used to promote homophobia, if it wasn't that, it'd be folks using the "born this way" notion to maintain that it's a genetic defect that prevents Darwinian evolution. Humans are sufficient idiots with or without religion.

Hey Debra. Thank you for taking the time to commen...

2012-04-24T18:05:01.069-04:00

Hey Debra. Thank you for taking the time to comment.

Hey Corne

2012-04-24T17:43:25.965-04:00

Hey Corne

Hey Noah, I'm here thanks to your post on Fac...

2012-04-24T01:21:56.366-04:00

Hey Noah, I'm here thanks to your post on Facebook. To start, I'm down for the uplifting of anyone being put down, though I have to say I question a lot of what's in this essay. Not the aspect of LGBT teens being bullied and harassed, but the racial/religious spin on it. I mean, homophobia has become a blanket term to cover a range of attitudes and behaviors, from ignorance, to actual "phobia", to pure hate. Cultural, racial, ethnic differences lead to differences in how issues and conflicts manifest themselves. So yes, there's a lot of talk about black American homophobia being rooted in the church, yet the "gay gospel choir" members in black churches is not a myth either. Is there a white American religious fear of having effeminate members? Who knows, because I'm not sure this has been getting the media attention that "homophobic black churches" gets.

Racism within the gay community is no joke either and I'd venture to guess that not much research has gone into looking at that dynamic and the negative effects it has on LGBT youth of color. I guess I'm saying that if we're going to say that people are equally capable of bad behavior, then it should be addressed in that way rather than the way that "mainstream" media (traditionally "white") frames the discussion. No offense meant to you at all, because I respect your work in regards to your art as well as your writing.

And on the Biblical side, that Leviticus quote was for male Israelites, so everyone else is free to do what they want. Biblically speaking, that is! ; )

Thank you.

2012-04-23T07:39:27.599-04:00

Thank you.

I am a 17 year old skateboarder in Detroit and it&...

2012-04-11T17:08:28.480-04:00

I am a 17 year old skateboarder in Detroit and it's a little difficult for me to prosper because there's no one to skate with and rarely somewhere to skate for me!!

First off, great site. Love the concept(and the p...

2012-04-05T12:02:06.285-04:00

First off, great site. Love the concept(and the picture of the pharm rep from SL is fantastic).

However, you are in extreme error in your conclusion about the Starbucks. It's a private entity that, by law and normal human interaction, is allowed to govern their premise as they see fit. And they have seen fit to keep tables separate, unless prior authorizaiton has been made. That's not a strang, nor unreasonable request.

However, it is not civil nor appropriate to decide your own will and desires are more important than the person/company that is providing you a service. I'm sorry, but you completely disrespected another person who was just trying to do her job as best she could. Could she have been more friendly? Probably, but maybe she's been struggling, maybe her boss had gotten on to her about the tables.

Instead of being so quick to judge, perhaps when invited into someone elses space we should respect the guidelines they see fit, and not be so quick to tell them off. I know that I would not take kindly to be told to "have realtions with myself either."

So with all that said, your site is great, but I'm afraid you are a bit hypocritical in your philosophy. You want people to respect you and your expression of the world, but refuse to respect others that differ from your own.

I see that Oni1111 let you know this but I wanted ...

2012-04-01T16:45:11.653-04:00

I see that Oni1111 let you know this but I wanted to emphasize it - since you were hoping for some resolution - that it is Barnes and Noble your complaint should go to.
Barnes and Noble cafes have a license to serve Starbucks products while remaining a Barnes and Noble cafe. All employees in the Barnes and Noble cafe are Barnes and Noble employees - were interviewed and hired in the same way the booksellers of the store were.
Barnes and Noble cafes are unable to accept Starbucks gift cards because they are not a Starbucks - but they can accept Barnes and Noble gift cards.
Your call, then, could start with the store manager (not cafe manager) of that Barnes and Noble or that store's district manager.
As a former Barnes and Noble employee I can tell you that the district manager's name is David and he has his office in the West Bloomfield Barnes and Noble store on Orchard Lake Rd.

Beyond that bit of information - your photograph of Thurston Renner-Thomas most definitely portrays that "a man can project strength as surely with quiet refinement as he can with flamboyant crassness". That thought is my favorite part of your article - imagining a middle school kid seeing this man and "Maybe he sees Thurston and is forced to re-imagine what success looks like. Maybe it forces him to rethink what he's come to accept as a masculine ideal." Excellent! One of the best comments I've read about the benefits of cross-cultural living.

You write beautifully and you are a photographer?!...

2012-03-29T09:54:47.325-04:00

You write beautifully and you are a photographer?! You're like superman! This post was great, I can't wait to read more.

Great article...I do wonder whether in this time o...

2012-03-05T09:34:50.734-05:00

Great article...I do wonder whether in this time of hyper-sensitivity and political correctness if Heather -- an employee of a large corporation that would be very concerned with its image -- is truly a racist. I am more inclined to believe she falls into a category that may be more common but just as arrogant, ignorant and painful than a racist: asshole! In fact, as you mention above about the hierarchy of human nature, Heather may actually fall into an asshole subcategory such as faux-power, fast-food manager asshole, or even the snobby bitch asshole.
Nevertheless, whether Heather is racist or just an asshole someone needs to remind her the golden rule that all of our mothers once taught us; treat people the way you would like to be treated.

Just so you know, it's a Licensed Store, meani...

2012-03-05T01:26:38.615-05:00

Just so you know, it's a Licensed Store, meaning that it isn't really a Starbucks, it's Barnes and Noble's employees working at a licensed store.

Your complaint should be to Barnes and Nobel's.

Wow! Great read Noah. Alicia Ware-Wilson

2012-03-02T19:15:49.788-05:00

Wow! Great read Noah. Alicia Ware-Wilson

Greetings from Tokyo. I've been a watcher of y...

2012-02-16T23:57:21.893-05:00

Greetings from Tokyo. I've been a watcher of your blog for some time now too. I love your pictures and you are an inspiration.

I truly loved this entry here. You were completely in the right. Eventually I'll make my way back to Detroit and I will be heading to Starbucks in Midtown; a much more friendlier place.

WOW! Heather sounds like a control freak as well a...

2012-02-09T10:24:41.788-05:00

WOW! Heather sounds like a control freak as well as a racist. It would have been another story if she would have gone to other customers and tell them to move there tables back as well. If the tables were not meant to be moved they should have them tacked down. I really do hope she looses her job just for the fact that the police were called because you did not want to move your table. You have a talent for words. I felt like I was there when reading and wish the story would not end. Great article. Oh and if she was saving the seats for paying customers she would have said that instead of talking about tables.